Ancient Forum

I figured I'd make a thread to discuss forum design here, since we're making this new ancient-era forum and all.

To start off, here are my suggestions on how the Civilized/Cultured/Barbarian setup should work. Please enjoy and discuss.

Barbarian Kingdoms would get a bonus to Population Growth, and their low end military units would be cheaper. As a tradeoff, Barbarian Kingdoms have fewer constructs per region and cannot use some advanced technologies like heavy armor.

Cultured Kingdoms would get a bonus to Influence and maybe an extra trait for their heroes. I'm not sure what their disadvantage would be, but greater public dissent might work.

Civilized Kingdoms would have discounted constructs and more construction slots, but would have low population growth.

This setup would be balanced, while also creating a fun game dynamic. Barbarian kingdoms would need to expand because they lack constructs, and would always be pushing to use their abundant population and cheap military units to overwhelm enemies. Civilized Kingdoms would be the opposite, using their advanced technology and constructs to defeat their enemies with powerful, quality units. Cultured Kingdoms would work best manipulating other kingdoms before smashing them outright.

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Of course, the above implies both an Influence and a Population mechanic, so we'll have to get on that.

Personally, I think population should require farms to maintain it. This would make overpopulation an issue as empires expand. Kingdoms that expand past their food supplies could suffer famine or disease. And since civilized kingdoms could house more farms, they can have more people in one region.

Yeah- population should be dependent on how many farms a nation has. A famine should cause dissent and population decline, and would always be a threat due to regular increase of people.

I think population should start at a fixed number for each civ type, and grow at a steady rate each week; that's a given. Here are my proposed numbers:

Barbaric: 100,000 people + 6,000/a week

Civilized: 400,000 people + 4,000/a week

Cultured: 700,000 people + 2,000/a week

This is just my suggestion.

Also, a downside to civilized... Dissent could work, as a civilized nation might be subject to new ideas which question the way things are, whereas a cultured civ would already have gone through that phase and a barbaric civ wouldn't have them at all.

But wouldn't having farms limit the Barbarian's bonus to Population Growth or would farms for Barbarians provide more food ensuring their bonus continues. The other two nation types wouldn't have to worry about their bonus' being effected (or is it affected) by constructs that limit their ability to have hero's with an extra trait or higher priced constructs. I understand if we want to have famine and disease but you throw in the Farm Construct something that effects such a huge bonus as Population Growth is for the Barbarians (who have fewer constructs in region to begin with) doesn't seem exactly right; give 'em a bonus then make a requirement that severly limits that bonus (thrown in with their con) it's like big old ouch time for them.

We should probably also talk about units. I'm not a big fan of unit templates, they don't work generally, their a pain, and while creatively there nice I don't think there's much value in it. I think generic levels of troops would probably be best. We could even have units for each civ type.

1. Farm would provide a bigger bonus for Barbaric civilizations.

2. Civilized Civs start with 5 Heroes for increased influence.

3. Cultured Civs start with a Special construct in the capital.

I'm not sure how I feel about Civilized and Cultured kingdoms starting out larger than barbarians. Even "advanced" civilizations started small. What if someone wants to play a rising city-state like early Rome, or one of the Greek city-states? Sure, they expanded into empires, but we don't really have an option for people who want to have small but advanced kingdoms.

It's 3-7. If you want to be small you can be relatively small.

Honestly I just want to be able to start with a small but civilized kingdom, which isn't really an option right now. If you choose cultured or civilized, you automatically have to start with a larger army and treasury. I don't feel like having a barbarian -> civilized -> cultured line is either historically accurate or very fun to play with. It leaves no room for Rome conquering the Gauls, or the Persians rising from an obscure tribe to a great empire, nor does it allow for instances like the Gaelic civilization that stretched from Britain to the Rhine.

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On another note, it's time to start toying with forum mechanics. Here's what I've figured so far:

Stability: 1-10 scale done by region. It would represent how safe and secure a given region is. 1-4 would be various forms of rebellion. 5-7 would be pacified, and 8-10 are relatively safe and happy.

Population: Necessary for recruiting soldiers, and providing tax income. I would say that population should be in the hundreds of thousands, with armies numbering in the tens of thousands. In that case, losing an army would put a serious dent in your empire's population.

Gold/Money/Whatever: Used to recruit soldiers, buy constructs, etc.

anything I'm missing? I'm not sure whether we'll have an influence mechanic or not. Don't see how it would work without cards.

Ok I've got a few questions.

1. I saw there is an action called Childbirth. Does this mean there won't by random births or just that it gives the option to force a birth so your kingdom can have an heir and such?

2. The starting armies for each nation are just a money value now. Does that mean you can buy as many units as you wish as long as you don't excede your manpower and gold limit? Also do units still have to be purchased in groups of 10,000 (10mp)? Side note 10,000 men is a huge number for ancient times. There were only 35,000 crusaders in the first crusade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade, and about 23,800 greeks at Thermopylae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae.

Regarding question 2, Thermopylae was one battle, not the entire army of all the Greek city-states. Not to mention that the Persian army at the battle was anywhere from 70,000-300,000 strong, according to modern historians' estimates. However, I would agree in that 10,000 is far too big to be a coherent unit in ancient warfare. Rapid communication across a force that big just wouldn't work given the era's technology and tactics.

A better unit size might be 1,000, which also matches quite nicely with 1 MP.

I completely disagree. See the Siege of Alesia, where 50,000 Roman's square off against 200,000 Gauls. Or Alexander the Great's battles against Persia where hundreds of thousands of troops were involved. I like large battles, if anything I feel that the current population size that's in the hundreds of thousands feels kind of unrealistic and limiting tbh. Millions seems more to fit the bill.

I'm not arguing that BATTLES or ARMIES should be smaller. I'm arguing that UNITS should be smaller. There's no way a 10,000-person force in ancient times could coordinate itself on the level of a "unit," the way brigades did in the 18th century. 1,000 people per unit still seems large, but it makes sense; it is the size of a legion, after all.

Also, it seems odd that you can create a unit with however much manpower you want without the gold cost changing. 50,000 swords should not cost the same to produce as 5,000.

We're working on that, Aspen.

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Anyway, I wanted to put up my suggestions for an influence system. I don't know what theo has planned with the diplomatic points, but I figure that posting ideas and talking about them is better than just waiting.

Anyway, my system would be centered the the Renown resource. Renown would be an indication of your nation's glory and power in the world, and thus their ability to influence other peoples.

A few ways to gain renown would be:
- Winning a particularly spectacular victory in battle.
- Capturing a settlement.
- Utterly crushing an enemy civilization.
- Leading your civilization through a period of growth or prosperity.
- building cultural constructs like temples and gymnasiums.
- building any great construct.

So essentially, anything that brings glory to your empire or king would earn renown. Cultural kingdoms would obviously have an advantage while building constructs, but barbarians could make up for their lack by conquering and expanding, letting them earn renown in a different way. This would be reflected in the yields: cultural buildings would give a small, yearly income of renown. Winning a battle would provide a huge one-time boost.

The flipside is that you could lose renown if bad things happen. For example:
- Spectacularly losing a battle
- Losing a settlement
- Coping poorly with a natural disaster.
- Losing a character in an ignominious way.

Once earned, characters could spend Renown on a number of actions. Renown is their fame and glory around the world, so it allows them to influence other kingdoms and bend events in their favor. Something things you could do with renown might be:
- Convince a prophet to make a politically convenient prophecy.
- promote rebellion or unrest in a foreign settlement
- Try and have an enemy champion assassinated
- promote new characters from the nobility
- Quell unrest in one of your own settlements

Essentially, renown would be a diplomatic weapon. You earn it by gathering glory and notoriety for your empire, and then you can use it to further your goals.

Let me know what you all think. Comments and suggestions are welcome, as always.

Spectacular!

here are some suggestions for character traits.

Heroes

Impaired Sight-
The hero can not improve the combat effectiveness of units armed with ranged weapons.

Bane of ____-
Pick a kingdom. The hero is more effective against that kingdom. Sometimes given when the hero is involved in a string of victories over the selected kingdom.

Fears ____-
Pick a kingdom. The hero is less effective against that kingdom. Sometimes given when the hero is involved in a string of losses against the selected kingdom.

I like all of those!

New Kingdom Trait Suggestion
This could be used alone or incorporated in Masters of the sea
Sea Raiders-
Your Infantry units take no penalty for fighting on ships they are transported on

On second thought, Asp is pretty much on the money by looking at these population numbers. It doesn't make sense to be fielding armies in the tens of thousands when populations don't even exceed a million yet. Smaller units of 500 to a 1000 should be the norm, unless we raise the population numbers (which wouldn't be a bad idea).

Kingdom Trait

Storytelling Tradition- Your people are known for their amazing poets, skalds, and play-writes. They know how to make you achievements sound greater and defeats noble.
All positive Renown is increased 20%. All negative Renown is decreased 20%.

Nomadic (Barbaric only)-
Settlements cost half the normal cost to upgrade but you may not build Protection constructs above palisades.

Honorable-
Cost of Attempt Assassination is 150% more.


Grim-
Festivals cost 50% more.

At around the Second Punic War, the Roman Republic had about 4,000,000 people and fielded three subsequent armies of 60,000, 50,000 and 84,000 within 15 years.

I don't think the population numbers are that off.

Since I've been given mostly positive reviews on them, I plan on adding these Traits to the Creating your Kingdom Section on Sunday night if there are no major objections

Kingdom Traits

Sea Raiders- Your warriors are most at home fighting on the deck of a ship and as a consequence your men find horses to be of better use to farmers than fighting men.
Your Infantry units take no penalty for fighting on ships they are transported on. No more than a third of your standing army may be cavalry.

Storytelling Tradition- Your people are known for their amazing poets, skalds, and play-writes. They know how to make you achievements sound greater and defeats noble.
All positive Renown is increased 20%. All negative Renown is decreased 20%.

Nomadic (Barbaric only)- Your people are constantly on the move and most of their structures are mostly of canvas, skins and wood and can be packed up in a few hours. Because of this the concept of fixed defenses holds no sway.
Settlements cost half the normal cost to upgrade but you may not build Protection constructs above palisades.

Honorable- Killing a man outside of battle or a duel is abhorrent to your people.
Cost of Attempt Assassination is 150% more.

Grim- Life is hard and except on very special occasions merrymaking is for those who have no sense of responsibility.
Festivals cost 50% more.

Character Traits

Impaired Sight-
The hero can not improve the combat effectiveness of units armed with ranged weapons.

Bane of ____-
Pick a kingdom. The hero is more effective against that kingdom. Sometimes given when the hero is involved in a string of victories over the selected kingdom.

Fears ____-
Pick a kingdom. The hero is less effective against that kingdom. Sometimes given when the hero is involved in a string of losses against the selected kingdom.

Also since the Authority Constructs provide the same bonuses as Stability Constructs for a higher cost. I suggest these changes.

Authority
Regent's Villa / Warrior's Hold - The villa of the chieftain or local governor is simply a huge collection of huts, lodgings and cabins where the entourage of the local leadership can co-exist without outside influence.
- Requires 100 Gold.
- Increases Settlement Stability by 1.
- Provides 5 Renown per turn

Governor's Mansion / Warlord's Hold - The abode of the governor's mansion is anything but humble. Huge furnishings, an even larger acreage that any of the surrounding towns. There is a bath house, stables and a small garrison as well. The Warlord's Hold is a fierce looking lodging with a huge feasting hall attached to it.
- Requires 200 Gold.
- Increases Settlement Stability by 2.
- Provides 10 Renown per turn

Ceremonial Palace / High King's Hall - The true symbol of power and royalty, this construct is a huge construction that took years and many lives to build. Huge gates, endless hallways and delicate art are the centerpieces of this huge construct, while for barbaric civilization this is a huge bastion of wood and stone that commands respect. (Special Construct).
- Requires 300 Gold.
- Increases Settlement Stability by 4.
- Provides 15 Renown per turn

Here's a suggested template for ships since we need to get that done and out of the way.

Primary Armament:

Ram (3 Gold):
Equipped with either a bronze or iron tipped ram, a ram is capable of tearing through wooden hulls and crippling a ship below the waterline and sending it to the bottom.

Balista and Ram (4 Gold)
Where a ram is deadly as is, a balista is capable of hurling bolts that are twice the length of men. Allowing this crew to pick off enemy crew with accuracy and impunity from nearly a 100 yards away.

Catapult and Ram (6 Gold)
Combined with the killing technique of a ram, a catapult can hurl huge stones at a longer distance than a balistae and with it's ram counterpart it can then close in for the kill.

Catapult and Naptha Fire (9 Gold)
Naptha is one of the most dangerous forces known to man, capable of burning even underwater. This weapon is hazardous to the enemy as much as it is to the crew! But if successfully launched, a naptha equipped vessel can turn an enemy fleet into cinders.

Secondary Armament:

None (0 Gold)

Archers: (3 Gold)
Armed with platforms on board ships, archers can rain down a hail of fire on enemy combatants. Killing rowers, officers, and anyone else that falls within their deadly range.

Marines: (5 Gold)
Marines are capable of either launching ship boarding action aimed at capturing ships or defending ships should they come under attack and be boarded themselves. Marines can also be attached to bireme's for quick though not sizable raiding actions along undefended coastal areas.

Movement:
Oars: (3 Gold)
The movement of this ship is determined by how many rowers are pumping away at the oars, but the speed is determined by a crews stamina.

Sails: (5 Gold)
While not relying on manpower to steer this ship, it is also at the mercy of the wind. Leaving it dead in the water if the Gods revoke their favor.

Oars and Sails: (7 Gold)
The best of both worlds, a rowing crew for when the wind dies and sails for when the crew is exhausted.

Class:
Bireme / Longship: (3 Gold)
Crew: 200

The bireme is a small craft capable of mounting fast raids in areas of shallow waters, and it can cross open ocean. But that doesn't mean it excels at combat on the open ocean, it was something that the bireme wasn't designed for. However, unlike triremes and Quinquereme's the bireme is the only craft that is shallow enough to move onto rivers and breach the heart of the enemy interior.

1 MP = 5 Bireme

*Biremes cannot equip anything larger than a ram as their primary armament

Trireme (5 Gold):
Crew: 350

Generally the mainstay of any Navy, the Trireme is capable of tearing holes through an enemy battleline's with it's rams and is even capable of mounting ship boarding actions against enemy vessels with either 100 marines or archers.

1 MP = 3 Trireme

Quinquereme (8 Gold):
Crew: 500

Often the flagship of a fleet, the Quinquereme is the largest type of sea going vessel capable of prowling the seas and is armed to the teeth, with a deck space capable of holding multiple catapults and a massive ram on the prow. There can also be either 200 archers or marines to supplement sea going actions. Due to it's size, it is unable to traverse on rivers or in shallow waters.

1 MP = 2 Quinquereme

Also, I noticed we lacked prices and such for military constructs. So, here's my take on what they should be. Just suggestions, feel free to ignore .

Barracks / Meeting Field - A simple area where weapons are stored and during times of war soldiers will meet up to grab their equipment and prepare for war.

-Requires 100 Gold
-Raises Unit Cap by 2

City Barracks / Muster Halls - The City Barracks will house the soldiers of your army during downtime, giving them a cot and food every night. The Muster Hall is a huge hall where our warriors can rally together before battle.

-Requires 200 Gold
-Raises Unit Cap by 4

Army Compound / War Encampment - The Army Compound is a series of barracks that are slightly apart from the city, or within the city that allows our multiple units to collaborate and train together. The War Encampment is a huge area where all of our troops can come together to feast and chant before battle.
-Requires 350 Gold
-Raises Unit Cap by 6
-Boosts unit morale if under siege

Fortress - The fortress is a huge construct of stone and wood that will protect the important members within the city if the city itself is besieged. Cracking the city is one thing, cracking a fortress is another! (Special Construct)
-Requires 500 Gold
-Raises Unit Cap by 8
-Boosts unit morale if under siege
-Boosts settlement stability by +1
-Serves as secondary defense if main defenses are breached. The settlement is not taken until the fortress falls!

Yo Theo my app is done besides the Malus we gotta pick for our nation and the history cuz I'm waiting on Aspen/your reply to fill that out. Wrote up a bit of a background history on my people but would like a shared history with someone before I post it up.

Shouldn't Vaklu also have two barbarian tribes that start out with him?
And Erzia shouldn't the fortress be like Barbarians cannot build it or something?